Episode #6 Underwriting Multi-Family Real Estate With Charles Seaman
In this episode of Real Estate Investing Made Simple, Charles Seaman goes through the in’s and outs of Underwriting.
Charles Seaman is a native of Brooklyn, NY that currently resides in Charlotte, NC and serves as Managing Member, Senior Acquisition Manager, and Asset Manager of Three Oaks Management LLC, in which he actively works to locate high-performing multifamily real estate deals throughout the
Southeast region of the United States.
He’s responsible for performing all of the company’s initial underwriting and analysis of these deals, which ultimately determines whether or not the deal will be a good fit for the company. Charles also has 14 years of prior experience working for a commercial real estate investor in NYC.
Contact Charles Seaman:
Welcome to The Real Estate Investing Made Simple podcast, the show empowering and educating people on how they can grow, manage and protect their wealth through real estate investing. Now, here’s your host, Bailey Kramer.
Bailey Kramer 00:25
Hello and welcome back to the real estate investing Made Simple podcast. The goal of this show is to break down complex real estate investing strategies that you can use to grow, manage and protect your wealth. I’m your host, Bailey Kramer, and today we are joined by our very special guest, Charles Seaman to talk with us about underwriting. Charles is a native of Brooklyn, New York that currently resides in Charlotte, North Carolina, and serves as a managing member, senior acquisition manager and asset manager of three oaks management LLC, in which he actively works To locate high performing multifamily real estate deals throughout the southeast region of the United States, he’s responsible for performing all the company’s initial underwriting and analysis on these deals, which ultimately determined whether or not the deal will be a good fit for the company. Charles also has 14 years of prior experience working for commercial real estate investors in New York City. Welcome to the show, Charles
Charles Seaman 01:23
Bailey. Thank you for having me.
Bailey Kramer 01:25
Yeah, it’s an absolute pleasure. So why don’t you go ahead and start telling the listeners a little bit about your background and where you are today?
Charles Seaman 01:33
Sure. So Bailey alluded to a 14 years of experience working for a commercial investor in New York City, and that gave me a lot of really good experiences. It gave me all the foundational things I needed to be successful in commercial real estate. While I was with them, I learned how to find deals, I learned how to analyze deals, I learned how to get financing and I learned how to manage them properly. The one thing I needed to do was really as much as the sales or disposition side solely for the fact that he was buy and hold investors typically once you’ve what’s up and he very rarely ever sold, but for the most part I got really good experience on all different sides of the deal. And also that the Learn from guy that was very experienced and also sat in on many times where he negotiated and then eventually got to do that stuff myself which gave me a lot of really good experience. So from that point fishbowl with the way we are now, most of my experience there was more in the traditional commercial sector, retail office industrial, I did have some multifamily experience but that was something I decided to stay away more into on my own when I started doing so in 2017. And for the last three years, my focus really has been on multifamily. Initially when I started it was a very quiet time after because I was still working a full time job and now I put in probably 40 to 60 hours a week with multifamily so it’s something I really focus heavily on. And while there are a lot of benefits to owning other commercial real estate, what I really like about multifamily is the stability difference. I think that’s probably what many people are attracted to because people always need some way to live, especially now in the COVID-19 world, not all the way to live, but it’s also doubling as a home office in many cases. So for many people, it’s not even leaving the house anymore and you focusing on where you live even when needed before. So then that’s great news for people looking to invest in multifamily.
Bailey Kramer 03:25
That’s right, and that’s another reason why I love multifamily for what you just said. So to jump right into the topic of today’s discussion, underwriting, can you explain to the listeners what is underwriting?
Charles Seaman 03:36
Absolutely. So in simple terms, underwriting is the financial due diligence associated with the deal. So what you’re doing is you’re mathematically finding out does this deal work for me or this invalid work? And the way you’re doing that is you’re taking the actual numbers that the seller provides you and you’re inputting them. There’s all different types of software or spreadsheets, you can use some people to use Basic spreadsheets, others by elaborate software, so anybody who’s doing this can decide what’s best for them. And their legacy. After you put those numbers in, and after you apply it and value it or any, any items that you can improve the performance of the property with what’ll happen is you’ll determine whether or not that deal is a good fit for you. And if returns meet the thresholds that you’re looking for.
Bailey Kramer 04:27
Right, that’s a great overview of what underwriting is, as a whole. So kind of zoom in a little bit and look at underwriting a little bit closer. There’s three main documents that people look at when underwriting which is the T 12, or the trailing 12, the rent roll and the operating memorandum. Do you mind kind of going through those and kind of explaining what they mean?
Charles Seaman 04:50
Yes, absolutely. So of those three, the first one that I recommend people start with is the key 12 with trailing 12. So the reason is called the trailing 12 is because it gives you income and expense statement the each of the last 12 months broken down my claim. And the reason you want to focus on that, if you wish, those are the salaries, actual numbers. A lot of times, while the offering memorandum does have a lot of good information, many times brokers will clean up items that aren’t normalized. But to me when I’m looking at a deal, I want to see the things that aren’t normalized, because those are all opportunities to improve those things. So if you see the cleaned up version, that doesn’t really give you an accurate picture of where the deal is now. So start with the T 12. And the way that I only tell people to look at it, and the reason I do this is because this is the way most lenders look at it is you want to look at the income on a T three annualized basis. So what that means is you’re taking the last three months, you’re adding up those totals, and then you’re multiplying them by four so that way you’re essentially extrapolating it over one years time frame. Any expenses you actually are going to look at on a T 12 basis. So that’s it. Going to review it. Then after you go through the T 12. You’ll review the offering memorandums, the deal has won. And the offering memorandum is going to tell you about any opportunities and the last to add value. So many times brokers will focus on physical value it was a physical value is basically going in there to upgrade a unit or upgrading some type of amenity that improve the value of the property. So oftentimes, it’s very common to see a direct income correlation when you’re improving units and upgrading them. So if you’re replacing flooring and countertops and appliances, people are typically willing to pay extra for that. But if you’re adding a door clock or replacing the roof, a lot of times people aren’t really willing to pay extra when you need to do some of those things anyway. So the things that you have to factor in to make sure that you are competitive with other properties in your area. So those are the things you’re really looking for when you go through the offering memorandum. You also want to zone in on any tidbits that may be Hidden in there, I always tell people, when you look at these deals and do your own writing, pretend you’re a private investigator, you want to figure out not only the things they telling you, and that they’re putting right in the front couple of pages that everybody reads, but the things that are hidden in the middle that people aren’t joining in on, because that may be where your money is. It could be where there’s money by fixing something, it could be where there’s a lot of costs that you may not be anticipating, and maybe a problem that you think is easier to correct, but you can’t and you want to really get into the meat and potatoes and make sure you understand that. So the rent Well, I would say I don’t use as much my initial underwriting but what I would say is valuable for is seeing the current performance of the property. Please raise your teeth while you’re waiting for the completed month’s rent early today, you know as of today and just get a snack. Okay, this is what the property is actually bringing in currently.
Bailey Kramer 07:52
Great, great. So to kind of go back and and really focus on the T 12. Can you walk us through, you know What are some line items we actually might see in the trailing 12?
Charles Seaman 08:04
Sure. So on the income, there’s generally less items. On the income side, you have your gross income, which is basically what the property would rent if it was 100% occupied. And then you have two types of vacancy, you have physical vacancy and economic vacancy. Physical vacancy means that there’s a unit that’s physically unoccupied. That’s in the process of being rented to a new tenant. Economic vacancy is something that probably is not going to be rented for the foreseeable future. If you have a property that has a leasing office, that ‘s usually one of the units as a police officer that you’ll probably never be rented. If it’s a property that has a model unit, then that’s something that will probably never be rented. If it has something where they give free apartments with discounted apartment staff, then actually an economic vacancy. Sure if you only rent an apartment for $600, and you’re giving the employee discounts of 300. Then you have $300 and our rapid facts, your data and a vacancy. And then also you would have any other income items. So other income could be utility reimbursement, which is usually a big one, especially for water and sewer, depending on the state that you’re in. It’s not allowable in every state. But a lot of states here in the southeast are right focused on, it’s very common for landlords to build tanks back with a sewer usage. So that’s usually a big item. You might have income from application fees. You may also receive income from pet fees, there’s all different things you can collect income from, those are some of the more common ones. On the expense side, there’s two types of expenses, there’s operating expenses, and there’s non operating expenses. The purpose of this year will focus on the operating ones because those are the ones that you really don’t look at your underwriting. And the operating ones are going to be your property taxes, your insurance, repairs, maintenance, marketing, general and administrative services, contract services, payroll, and also property management fee. So those will be the ones that you really zone in on and you want to understand that As you start looking at deals where those numbers should be in your area,
Bailey Kramer 10:05
right, when you get the T 12, the trailing 12. Like you said, you’re kind of investigating to see, can I lower this expense is this typical for the area and kind of determining if it’s a good property for you? Can you share with us a cost per unit average.
Charles Seaman 10:21
So keep in mind it is going to vary from Market to Market, but some rough numbers that we’ll see more so on the expense side, so I’ll give you rough numbers on a per unit basis. So if you’re looking at repair and maintenance, a lot of times that’s going to run between 300 on the low side to 600 per door. Many markets I find usually 500 to 550 is probably a realistic one. But if you have a newer property, maybe on the low side, and you have an old property with a lot of deferred maintenance, it’s probably going to be on the high side. Cable oftentimes can run on the low side $700 per unit, up to maybe, you know, depending on the market, you’re in 1500 thousand units, and it’s At least I find generally North Carolina and Florida have higher payroll expenses and the other states, you know, they’re like go to Alabama, South Carolina, I can probably find that for thousand dollars. But if I’m in North Carolina, sometimes, depending on the area, maybe between 13 and 1500. So that’s where it helps knowing your area. So you can see different things like that. For general admin, that’s usually any, any expenses associated with the office, or the administrative function of the property, usually your legal expenses, your professional fees, any banking fees, your credit card processing fees, things like that all be considered general admin, that typically runs between 100 and $200 per unit marketing, ditto for that also, you’re going to see 100 to $200 per unit, property management fees, usually a percentage of the property’s income. So on the low side, I would say that’s going to run on the 3% side, on the highest it may be as high as 10% 3% is probably the other property that’s 200 years old. Roger, if you’re really gonna negotiate, and maybe you’ll get it for a smaller property, but not as likely. And generally, the larger the property, the lower your property manager.
Bailey Kramer 12:12
Right, and those are averages that you might see in certain markets and will give you a good indicator as to the cost per unit. And that’s all those numbers that Charles mentioned are on a per-year basis. So $300 per unit for the whole entire year. Just to clarify there.
Charles Seaman 12:30
Yep. And what I also recommend is for anybody just starting out anyways, you get more experienced, but especially starting out, what you want to do is develop relationships with property managers in the area, and you want to be able to bounce these ideas off them because they’ll know the numbers a lot better than you will starting out. So make sure you use those resources and make sure that you really take the time to familiarize yourself with where numbers are going.
Bailey Kramer 12:53
Absolutely. So then moving on to the operating memorandum, you know, kind of like the pitch deck The broker will give you to show the highlight the property, can you kind of go into some key things that you might see in the operating memorandum?
Charles Seaman 13:07
Yes, absolutely. So most brokers lay out the LMS very similarly. So the first thing you’ll usually see is you’ll see a nice, beautiful picture of the property right. And then you have a table of contents with the contact information for all the people that are working on a deal. After that, you’ll get an executive summary, which basically gives you the highlights of the deal. So it’s telling you Okay, this is, this is why you want to invest in this deal. It’s selling everything up in one to two pages, you’ll probably get a few more photographs, does that really represent the property nicely, and evaluate the opportunity to summarize, and any highlights about why the area is a great spot for you to invest in? So then, if you get to the executive summary, most times they’ll spend a few pages talking about the highlights, and most times, the first time they talk about any physical value that you have the opportunity for. So they may say okay, you can replace your countertops, cabinetry, flooring, upgrade appliances, light fixtures at an estimated cost of $5,000 a unit and get a rental premium of $150. And then most brokers doing that will also pick one or two common properties in the area that say, Okay, you know what these properties have already done, this is what they’re getting. And then they’ll point to it as evidence and say, Okay, this is why you can do the same thing here at this property. And then they’ll also go and further expand on the highlights of that area and also anything else as to why you may want to really invest in the property. Then after that, most of the ones definitely have information on the property itself. They’ll talk about the year of construction, the size of the property, how many units it is, and the types of construction. You’ll see it has copper wiring, it has copper plumbing, it gives you all the basic specs of the building so that way you understand what you’re getting into. And it will also give you some more photographs taken typically sheet interior and exterior photos of the property along with the list. Have a unit and community amenities the property has now that we really have a good feel for what you’re buying. So that the next section typically talks about the area. Now, what I would recommend to people is if you’re just starting out and you don’t know the area, spend some time familiarizing yourself with the areas that are very important. While it is great to find a great deal, it isn’t much of a terrible area. So you want to make sure before anything that you’re investing in the right spot. If you know your area, you probably don’t need to spend the time focusing on the pages in the back of the area, because eventually you’ll start seeing the same stuff over and over again, if you look at enough fields, but starting out that information will be very helpful. It’ll typically give you some information that the employment in the area usually shows you the largest employers and also the largest interests or industries. Many times the last row includes an area manager This is where the property is. And this is the proximity to major employers, major retailers and major businesses. That means you can see where it is in relation to everything and how desirable might be your prospective tenant. And after you get the information about the property, the area, then the broker is going to go into the financials. Obviously not the most sexy part of the package like pickling in the back, but a very important part of the package. So the financials are going to give you a summary of where the property is now, and then you’ll have the brokers pro forma, which is having a projected need to be going forward. Now, keep in mind and I say this with, you know, a lot of people having made this mistake, do not take the brokers pro forma as gospel. It is a great resource, but keep in mind that the broker’s job is to sell the deal and to sell the deal, they’re usually putting the best case scenario. Life does not always give us best case scenarios. So keep that in mind. Sometimes you get worst case scenarios. So you want to make sure that you’re prepared as an example. There was a deal I looked at earlier this week in North Carolina. And the broker was projecting a $150 rental premium based on physical value in. And when I was speaking with my property manager in the area, in addition to using my own knowledge, we determined that the real value is about a $50 premium. So if I’m getting a $50 Premium versus $150 premium, that’s gonna make a big difference and the offer price that I’m able to take that. So you want to make sure that you really know your numbers and that you’re very confident in that because that will go a long way. So, in addition to the actual pro forma and the financial analysis, they’ll typically include sales comps and rent comps. And when comps are there other properties in the area that give you an idea of what things typically rent for what shell for that area? So sales, comps are going to be other properties that are sold within the last few months or a few years depending on how big of a market you’re looking at. That’ll give you an idea with similar products and selling foot and run, comps will usually be similar properties and showing you what they’re ranking for. Most times a broker is going to pick the most favorable rank comps that have value, it’s already done to them to say, listen, all these contractors have done it, you can do this too. That’s not that’s not a bad idea, because there is a lot of truth to that. But I would caution you just to do your own research and don’t show anything that’s in the awareness gospel. Go go on these on the websites of these different properties, quality management offices, do it under the guise of a prospective tenant, do not tell them that you’re looking to buy competing properties that probably they probably will not be very helpful to you and that we go like do it as as a prospective tenant as you’re looking to rent an apartment there and just find out what units are ranking for and get as much information as you can. So that way, you know where you work.
Bailey Kramer 18:51
So then after you kind of look through the operating memorandum, what’s your next step in the underwriting process?
Charles Seaman 18:56
So the next step is to reach out to your property manager. So you want to reach out to them and you want to confirm any projections that you might have. Now, whatever, we recommend that you’re new, you’ll probably be doing this more often. Once you get more experienced, you don’t want to do this too often because you don’t want to waste your property managers time, otherwise, they’re not going to be very happy to deal with you. You want to make sure that the deal at least has some potential before you have to go out there and spend a lot of time reviewing the property and going through the financials. So that way, they are happier to deal with you and look forward to doing that more on a regular basis. So initially, use them as much as you need to, but then kind of wean you off with little by little as you get more experience. Now in addition to reaching out to your property manager, what you also want to do is reach out to the local tax assessor. Most counties have a tax assessor depending if you’re in a bigger market. You may have one just for the individual city but it’s go on google and type in wherever you watch if I go to Charlotte, North Carolina practice tax assessor will usually be one of the top results. And then you can go to the website, what I typically recommend is send an email. And the reason I do that is you get a response in writing. Now, if it’s something that you have to call up, there’s nothing wrong with that. But just make sure you take good notes so that you really understand the process. And don’t be afraid to question because property taxes are a very important component, and they can be very expensive on multifamily properties. So some states resist instantly upon sale. Some have a scheduled period where they reassess regardless of shall not, but you want to know when that change is going to take effect, and how much it’s going to be because that can be a pretty significant change in underwriting. Sometimes I’ve seen property taxes double a triple. So if you’re dealing with something as a six figure line item already, having a double or triple can really make an impact on the deal. I also recommend reaching out to an insurance broker and getting an insurance quote and that’s not something you need to do. Immediately, but you definitely want to do it before you read the contract, just to make sure that you know your numbers and be really confident in that.
Bailey Kramer 21:07
Great. There’s a term called stress testing when people underwrite and it gives people a little bit more reassurance about the property, can you go into a little bit more what stress testing is and some key metrics you use?
Charles Seaman 21:21
Yes. So stress testing is basically just to see how a property will perform in a worst-case scenario. And you want to understand where the breaking point for the property is. So different groups use different metrics. A common one is a break-even your braking accuracy. So what that means is, you want to know if things go absolutely terrible. Maybe you’re running the property poorly, maybe walking conditions change, maybe the combination of everything. You want to know what occupancy Are you still able to pay your bills. For an average multifamily property, they say it’s typically somewhere around 770 8%. And what that means is you’re not making a profit, but you’re not going loss, it means that you’re paying all your operating expenses and servicing the debt. And you’re still coming out. Even if you’re not underwater, you’re not above water, but it has right there. So that’s usually a pretty fine one. Another one is with terminal cap rates, especially if you’re using the syndication model that will be important because the sale of the property is definitely an important part of your return metric that you give it to your investors. So with something like that, you’ll stretch that at a different terminal cap rate. So you may look at, you know, I’m just using random cap rates, which will vary from area to area, but maybe you’ll see what it sells for at a six cap at a six and a half cap at a seven cap, a seven and a half cap. And he may do that, you know, maybe up to an IP. And you’ll do that. So you have a wide variety of scenarios. Because one thing you’ll learn about this is that there are things you can control and things you can’t control. If it’s something that pertains to the direct operation of the property, it’s within your ability to control it. But if it’s something that affects the overall market, which a cap rate is usually thinking over the overall market than any one property, unfortunately, none of us have any control over that. That’s something that you use affects a larger pool. It’s caused by a pool of millions of buyers and millions of operators. So no one operator is typically going to have enough influence to affect that. So the reason you stress that is to see how these different things play out with different variables just to know how your returns will look to your investors.
Bailey Kramer 23:37
So underwriting is definitely a process and definitely super essential for you to ensure that a property is the right fit for you. Can you kind of walk through how many deals you have to underwrite for you to just purchase one property?
Charles Seaman 23:53
Yes. So historically, most people would say if you look at 100 deals, you know, one property Now, it might just be me, maybe I was slower than average. But I looked at someone who’s been 150 and 200. Before I found my first, I would say there’s probably a combination of a few things. One initially not having a target market when I first thought even to starting in 2017 did a pretty strong seller’s market, which is still a pretty strong seller’s market. But that’s starting to change a little bit on the stronger of a seller’s market you’re in, the higher it’s going to be to find good deals as a buyer. And especially when you’re starting out with no track record, it’s going to take you that much longer. So what I would tell anybody is that if you want to speed that process up, and you want to make it less than 150, or less than maybe even 100 deals, what you want to do is find the right people to partner with and you want to piggyback with experienced people who have track records already. That way you can speed that process shock and not have to go through the same thing time and time again.
Bailey Kramer 24:58
Is there any other aspect of it writing that you want to cover before we move on to the next section of our show.
Charles Seaman 25:03
The only thing I would say is a general note is right now, right at a very unique point in the market cycle, it still is a seller’s market very much. But one thing I would say I think a lot of other active buyers would agree with is that as of late in particular, since COVID-19, there’s been a big disparity in the prices that sellers want, and the prices that buyers are going, Okay, now, many deals are still selling for similar prices to what they would have pre-COVID-19. But there’s a much smaller pool of buyers willing to pay those prices. So what that means is in the coming months, we’re probably going to see a shift where it does go from a seller’s market to a buyers market. So overall, I’d recommend being very conservative right now. And I also recommend being very cautious. It’s not the time to jump into deals, you know, get into shopping if it actually screams that it’s a great deal. But if it doesn’t Be patient, develop your expertise. people to work with and get ready for the next six to 12 months, we see a lot of opportunities.
Bailey Kramer 26:05
And just to know, we are chatting here on July 5 for those listening later on. So we’re in the Coronavirus period July 5 is when we’re having this conversation. All right, so now we’re gonna move on to the next section of our show, which is the big four, we’re going to ask the same four questions we ask all of our guests. So number one, Charles, what’s your number one habit for success?
Charles Seaman 26:29
consistency. So the biggest hack that I would tell you is just getting there and doing what you need to do. And I think where most people fall short, is that they have shiny object syndrome. And what happens is they start on something, they go down a path, and some people go pretty far down that path. But then what happens is they get discouraged. And unfortunately, a lot of times when you get discouraged, you’re probably closer than you realize to being successful. You just have to keep pushing and saying, you know what, let me trust the process. And let me trust myself to know that I can do this, I’m going to make it work. For me, it took almost two years to find my first deal. So I could have easily gotten started during that period, and there were definitely times I mean, I wasn’t thrilled that it was taking so long. But the key is you have to keep going on and keep doing what we need to eventually the process. We’re waiting for that.
Bailey Kramer 27:23
Absolutely. consistency is key, especially in a process like underwriting, like you said, it took you over 150 deals to underwrite just to find one deal. So that just takes consistency. So number two, limiting beliefs or thoughts in our heads that hold us back from realizing our potential. What is one limiting belief that you were able to crush and how did that impact your life?
Charles Seaman 27:47
So for me, a big one was that I didn’t think I’d be able to start out in commercial real estate. And it really because I didn’t have the capital to invest there. So I was leaning more towards just the whole family and doing some other things in real estate. But it discouraged me because I knew I had so many extra keys to one commercial deal. I was doing that in my full time job anyway. So I thought to myself, you know, why can’t I do it on my own and I had the skill, the expertise, the only difference was the guy that I worked for had millions of dollars, whereas I did. So you know that that’s very high thought to me, Android, Android did initially with the single family residential real estate, I said two things. One, I really don’t know much about this until I just don’t like it as much. You know, doing commercial deals will work. I want to be doing commercial deals on my own. So that’s where it motivated me to learn about syndication, which I always say is one of the best legal ways of using other people’s money. And it was a long process. It wasn’t a bad thing. I had a lot of self doubt that you know what, maybe I’m just not supposed to be studying commercial real estate. It probably took me literally years to overcome that. It was a lot of bad self talk and a lot of beer programming. But finally, around like 2016 2017, something in my head snapped. And I don’t know if it’s for the better or worse. But then, I started changing the way that I talked to myself. And I said, You know what, you can do this, you do this at work, you know, you know what you’re doing, you can do it. And it came from going to a lot of meetup events and hearing people tell me great advice, mostly for free or for advice a lot of times. And the thing is, I’m saying to myself, you know, it’s great that I get such great advice, but everybody else is making money off it. And that’s where I realized that I really needed to change the beliefs that I had limiting beliefs you said, and as I did that, it set me on the right path to being able to utilize indication of being able to find multifamily deals. So that helped a lot.
Bailey Kramer 29:52
And number four, what is your favorite real estate business or personal development related book.
Charles Seaman 29:58
So I’ll start with a few Development wise, probably my favorite book of all time is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I read that book when I was 19 years old, I should probably go back and reread it because I’m 35 now, but what I always say is that with any business you’re in, dealing with people is essential. And if you want to be successful, especially in a business like multifamily real estate, it is very much a relationship business. People want to like you, people want to deal with you, and you have to be willing to deal with them at their level. So I would recommend reading that and really be more aware of people that you deal with and just be observant. See where they are and how you can best serve them. So that way they can serve you also. And aside from that in terms of real estate and just personal finance. I’m a big fan of Ronnie Kiyosaki. So I’ll probably mention the same ones that everybody else does with Rich Dad Poor Dad cashflow quadrant, I probably read almost all of his books better start with those for me right now.
Bailey Kramer 30:59
Absolutely not. I love Robert Kiyosaki books as well. So Charles where can the listeners get a hold of you.
Charles Seaman 31:05
They can find me on social media, they can reach out on LinkedIn and BiggerPockets just search my name Charles Seaman and they can also reach me on my website 3oaksmgmt.com. Or by phone 347-306-3278.
Bailey Kramer 31:29
Fantastic. Well, Charles, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was an absolute pleasure having you on and thanks for adding incredible value to my listeners.
Charles Seaman 31:38
I hope you guys found it very helpful too.
Thank you for listening to the real estate investing Made Simple podcast. For more resources or to connect with us further, please visit our website http://www.Baileykramer.com. We’ll see you next time.